[00:00:00] Jane Healey: Welcome to Historical Happy Hour, the podcast that explores new and exciting historical fiction novels. I’m your host, Jane Healey, and in today’s episode, we welcome author Jane Yang to discuss her beautiful debut novel, The Lotus Shoes, which publishes weekly called An Exceptional Story That Enchants from the First Page to the Last.
Welcome, Jane.
[00:00:23] Jane Yang: Hello. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here.
[00:00:27] Jane Healey: Me too. I’m excited to have you. I should mention Jane is zooming in from Melbourne, Australia, and it’s 11am in the morning there. So not too bad. But thank you for coming on
[00:00:38] Jane Yang: time. Actually,
[00:00:39] Jane Healey: good. Good. I’m going to do a quick bio and then dive in with all I have so many questions.
So Jane Yang was born in the Chinese enclave of Saigon and raised in Australia. Yeah. where she grew up on a diet of superstition and family stories from old China. Despite establishing a scientific career, first as a pharmacist and later in clinical research, she is still sometimes torn between modern rational thinking and the pull of old beliefs and tales that have been passed down the family.
Jane’s family tales are an inspiration for her writing. She writes stories about women in pre communist China, exploring power and class struggles, and Sometimes with a dash of suspense, spirits, and hauntings. Again, welcome. So I want to talk about, congratulations on this terrific debut.
It’s getting tons of great reviews and buzz. We were just talking about in both the UK and the US and in Australia. Talk about the premise of this novel. I read your author’s notes. It’s based on your family’s fascinating history.
[00:01:38] Jane Yang: Yes I actually recently wrote a column for the Historical Novel Society where I compare inspiration for the lotus shoes to the genko, a species of tree that takes decades to mature.
So for me I use this analogy because it, On a subconscious level, the first seed I would say came when I was five years old and my mama, so that’s grandma from dad’s side, showed me a handkerchief with a double sided embroidery of a goldfish and which she did herself. And at that time she also told me about my distant great aunt Autumn Moon, who had natural feed and she was born in 1870s.
So at that time, I would say maybe as high as 90 or even more 90 plus percent of women had found feet. It was a hallmark of respectability and pretty much the only way for a woman to move up the social ladder. Autumn Moon didn’t have the Bound bound thick, but she had exceptional embroidery skills and this actually, miraculously, against all odds, allowed her to marry into a gentile family, middle class family because embroidery was another highly valued feminine skill.
And so she’s the inspiration for Little Flower and Mama used to say she walked with a graceful willow and Mama has a memory of her walking into a room during one of those Chinese New Year’s festivals, which were really rowdy. Men were playing dice games and so on. But as soon as Autumn Moon moved, walked in, it would be like a respectful silence.
So that’s my inspiration for Little Flower.
[00:03:23] Jane Healey: Amazing. I I want to talk. You sent me actually some terrific possible questions that I totally am taking advantage of here. This is about two women from opposite ends of society. Little Flower, who you mentioned, who is a slave, who’s sold as a slave to Ling, is it Ling Jing?
Am I pronouncing that correctly? Ling Jing, yeah. Ling Jing, the daughter of an esteemed family, the Fang family. Using this as a launching point, how did you come to. Develop these characters Little Flower and Ling Jing.
[00:03:54] Jane Yang: Yes as I mentioned, Little Flower is based on Autumn Moon, but for Lin Jing, I modelled her in a way based on my other grandmother Popo, so Mum.
Popo looks completely different to Mama. Which is, she’s very petite and elegant, my Popola’s very athletic looking, she’s, was extremely tall for a Chinese woman she was even taller than some men, and she absolutely loathed the patriarchy, she wanted more than what life could give her, and she’s the one who told me about the celibate sisterhood She wanted to join them.
She wanted freedom. She didn’t want to get married. So basically everything that lingeing is in a way. And so I thought the two of them would be great foils for each other because at the time when I was starting to write the Lotus Shoes. I often found that the main character was a woman in historical fiction who rejected all feminine traits.
But I wanted to have a contrast of both. I think it’s good to have, to see the pursuit of freedom from two very Different personality, one who’s reserved, but also brave and strong, little flower, and the other one’s really outspoken and impulsive bit like my two grandmothers in a way. So yeah, that’s how I came to develop the two of them.
[00:05:13] Jane Healey: So interesting. I want to talk about some of your research, including the practice of foot binding, which you realize that there was a lot of nuance to it. It was a way to for women to rise above their station. I have to read this quote, tightly bound feet were the mark of an honorable woman, eclipsing beauty, a rich dowry, or even a bloodline in the marriage stakes.
So it’s in history, it’s talked about as this barbaric practice. But it was, reading the book women wanted this because it was a way to rise above their station. So talk about your research into this part of the culture.
[00:05:51] Jane Yang: Yes. So my, for years, Mama told me that perfect pair of golden lilies was the best.
best gift a mother could give to a daughter. And in fact, only strong mothers could do that because you have to endure the horrors of looking, seeing your daughter suffer. And but for many years, I was like you, I read a lot of Western based tech, historical texts on this issue. And I felt actually for many years, a bit embarrassed to be associated with such a barbaric practice.
But as I got older, I started to think why would they do it? Like why keep up with a tradition for a thousand years, if it didn’t come from a deeper psychological place? And wasn’t able to find a lot of document actually from a Chinese woman’s point of view. So I extrapolated based on human psychology really.
And I started to think then it must come from a place of love that’s for mothers to do this so that their daughters could have either stay within the social class that she’s in or move up if possible. So that she could get a better life. Because there was no other route for a woman other than through marriage.
And I wanted that nuance to be portrayed in the story. And also I wanted to show that sometimes there are unintended consequences of modernism or progressivism especially for the first wave of women who go through it. And I hope I’ve done that in the Lotus Shoes.
[00:07:24] Jane Healey: Yes, absolutely. And I should mention golden lilies are what the perfectly bound feet are called, correct?
Yeah. Yes. Sorry. I should have said that as well. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about more about your research about this era for women in China and what was your research process like? What were the challenges of it? And how long did it take you? Any of that? I love to hear about people’s research process.
[00:07:49] Jane Yang: Yeah, so I try to read a as much sources, primary sources as possible. But again, there weren’t really much written from the women themselves, so I had to take two extrapolating information. For example my mama would say only real Gentil ladies could embroider and have an. Produce exquisite artwork, which I found a bit dubious, like surely any, talent can be born to any class.
But through a research, especially a book called the way of embroidery, which was published in the early 18 hundreds in China. I’ll read a quote from there. It says to produce the best embroidery, you need to find a quiet, clean and bright corner as unsullied. As the embroidery is mind. And also that embroidery is a moral cultivation on par with masculine pursuits like calligraphy and literature.
So based on that, it’s really clear that it was valued as like the highest level of achievement for a lady behind gold, except from having golden lilies. And also I saw in embroidery books, artifacts. Load of shoes, those tiny shoes for the bound feet that were put on tasseled these sort of display yeah, they were just put on display during weddings so that the the guests could judge the bride’s skills.
So from those sources, I extrapolated that. It must be true what my mama said, not that only ladies could embroider, but it was a way to distinguish between the classes and attempt to foil any woman’s attempt to move up the ladder which luckily my distant great aunt was able to break through in her case.
I think she was able to do that because it was at the end of the 19th century where influence, Western influences were coming through. So rules started to become more relaxed.
[00:09:46] Jane Healey: Yeah. So interesting. I loved this book because I love learning about aspects of history that I don’t know that much about.
And another underexplored part of Chinese history that you bring, talk about is the celibate sisterhood and talk about that and. What that was and how that offered women at that time in China a different path and a kind of freedom.
[00:10:14] Jane Yang: Yeah, so that’s really unique to the region where my ancestors were from, which was the Pearl River Delta.
So in that region when the silk industry exploded, there were these industrial factories and for silk rearing that is, and they needed nimble fingers. So the high, mainly young women especially unmarried women, there was this superstition that they were more pure and could produce better silk.
That’s a side issue, but anyway, they, these women worked in the factories and it was hard work. long hours, but for the first time, they were earning wages that were sometimes higher than the entire annual income of their farming families. So they had financial independence for the first time ever. And in this area there were already a history of what was called the lay transfer marriage, which is where Women would marry, but not fully move into the husband’s home for a period of time.
So there was that already. And then, but once they had the financial independence, women started to band together, built sanctuaries where they live together and were able to support each other economically. And this allowed them to reject arranged marriages. But there was a cost to it. In order. For society to accept this, they had to take a vow of celibacy, and any woman who breaks the vow and loses her virginity will be executed by being shoved into a bamboo cylinder.
designed to cage pigs and thrown into the river. So it was horrific. And yeah. So in the story, I wanted to explore what, if it is about feminism and solidarity, why would they do this? And I think it’s because they were so afraid of having this tiny bit of freedom snatched away from them. Like they didn’t want one, they didn’t want their character to be the sisterhoods that is the reputation to be questioned and then to give a reason for society to tear down what they had, what little freedom they had.
[00:12:29] Jane Healey: Yeah, that detail about the about drowning them essentially was horrific. Yeah, unbelievable. Another aspect of your research, you said the second half of The Little Shoes is set in Shunduck. Is that pronounced correctly? Shunduck,
[00:12:43] Jane Yang: yeah. It’s a bit tricky. I pronounce it the Cantonese way, so Shunduck.
[00:12:48] Jane Healey: Oh, okay. Oh yeah, okay, I see that in the notes. So you say, my research trip to Shunduck was full of serendipitous slash amusing events. I want to hear, tell us a couple, about a couple of these.
[00:13:01] Jane Yang: Yeah. That’s one of my favorite memories of that trip, which was about 10 years ago. So I really wanted to track down one of these all of eternal purity your bong as it’s called in Cantonese.
But Google doesn’t work in China and there wasn’t really an address for me to but what I did was I went, I just wrote down the words of the characters and I showed the receptionist, at the hotel and thinking, Oh, I’m not going to get anywhere, but let’s try. And she’s Oh, it’s really easy.
You just, I was staying in Guangzhou at the time. So she said, take a bullet train to Sendak. It’s under an hour. And then you just approach any taxi driver, show him the words and he’ll take you there. And so far so good. I arrived with my husband and a young man, really enthusiastic and friendly, goes, yeah, I know where it is.
After driving about maybe an hour or more in the countryside, we were nowhere to be seen. I was thinking, is this a scam? So he spoke Mandarin. And I speak Cantonese. So communication was a bit of a problem. I had to call my mom. Who was in Australia at the time to translate and then somehow they cobbled together a plan and we went to the police station for help and the police actually guided us there on his motorbike.
So we arrived at this place, I’m like, great, but it was locked. And then I’m like, I’ve come all this way, but then I walk around the building and there’s a sign to say, you’ve got to go to the Bruce Lee Amusement Park and the tour guide will be there. And I’m like, could there really be such a place? It was about five, 10 kilometers away.
We drove there. There was, there’s a massive statue of him. The tour guides there, miraculously, she was free, spoke Cantonese and really excited to show me, show us around. So we drove back and she let us in and it was an amazing place. I have, it was, it inspired so many things in the second half of the Lotus Shoes.
[00:15:00] Jane Healey: Amazing. Oh, that’s so funny. And who knew there was a Bruce Lee amusement park? I have some writing questions now. And remember, people can put questions in the chat or in the Q& A. After I finished my questions, I will ask questions from the audience. So your novel’s based on family history. How did you strike a balance?
Between your family history in general, and the fictional elements of the story. I always ask how historical fiction authors strike that balance and if there is any specific rules you have, you adhere to.
[00:15:34] Jane Yang: I think for me whatever I could research and be historically correct in terms of for example clothing or hairstyle or time periods I would stick to.
But in terms of the characters, I went with less people that are actually in my life and more on what is most psychologically true. Because as a reader, I find stories are most compelling when we believe them psychologically.
[00:16:00] Jane Healey: Yep. Totally. Completely agree. And this is your first novel. What is your writing?
What was your writing process like for it? Do you do you plot things out? Do you write by the seat of your pants, like a pants or a burst plotter? I always ask this question if you listen to the podcast. How’d you do
[00:16:17] Jane Yang: it? In life, I am very structured. I plan everything on the Life admin person for my family.
But for the British shoes, I did a combination of both. Cause I was driven by this. I don’t quite know where it comes from. This misguided belief that I wasn’t a real writer if I plot it, that somehow it was more authentic to write by the seat of your plants, the pants. And then it became really chaotic for me.
And I had to do so many drafts. So actually I’m, then I started writing chapter plans and it just flowed a lot more. And then I discovered a save, save the cat, how to write a novel, save the cat. And that made me feel so validated. Not that she promoted planner plotter over the other option, but she said that.
She provided a structure and she said that a lot of people do this and it just made me, just gave me permission to plot and this is what I’ve done. I’m doing for book two and I’m finding it works so much better for me. Yeah, it’s funny. I think that I was the same way with my first novel. You stumble your way through and you’re trying to find your way and you, and like I, I didn’t pay attention to structure.
[00:17:33] Jane Healey: For the first, for my first novel, which is why it took me over 10 years to write it, I think, and then I was like, Oh there’s lots of different structures. Yeah. Jane mentioned Save the Cat. That’s there’s a screenwriter’s Save the Cat, which is a structure for screenwriting, but there’s also Save the Cat writes a novel.
It’s a different book, and it’s all the different kind of structures for writing novels, and it’s not like a Yeah. Yeah. It’s a, it’s, it gives you a framework. It does, it’s not like you’re copying anything or like trying to do, be formulaic. It just provides, I think of it as like a clothes hanger for your story, to shape, make the shape of it all fall together.
I
[00:18:11] Jane Yang: completely agree. I don’t actually follow it to the T, but it just, I took some ideas from it, but more importantly, it just made me, it validated my method. And I didn’t feel like such a fraud anymore.
[00:18:24] Jane Healey: Exactly. Were you, this is written from two perspectives at Little Flowers and at Loonjings.
Was that always your plan to write it from both, from two perspectives? Yes. Yes, definitely, because I wanted two characters that were very different as I said earlier. And also they have access to different parts of that world. So there are scenes points and also just experiences that one Lin Jing would see that Little Flower wouldn’t have access to and vice versa.
[00:18:54] Jane Yang: So it was really important to see it from both their point of views.
[00:18:58] Jane Healey: Did you write one perspective first and then the other one and weave them together or did you write, did you go back and forth as you were writing?
[00:19:06] Jane Yang: I went back and forth because a lot of their, because their goals are at odds with each other.
Little Flower wants freedom but Lin Jing sees her as a useful tool. So every action that they did had an impact on the other. I didn’t, it wasn’t exactly 50 50 but more or less. I alternated the perspectives throughout.
[00:19:26] Jane Healey: This is your debut, as I mentioned, which honestly is hard to believe, and many of the reviews that I’ve read of the book reflect that as well.
We’re all like, I can’t believe this is your first book. What was the most challenging aspect of writing this story, and what part did you love?
[00:19:41] Jane Yang: I think for me, the most challenging part is all the drafts because it can get well, I’m sure a lot of authors will agree that you get to a point where it feels like you’re never gonna get the final okay.
But I don’t regret any of the drafts and I’m incredibly thankful for my agent and editors because even though at the time It felt disheartening. Once I did the next draft, I’m like I really improved things. I’m so happy that I listened to them and followed through with it. My favorite part.
Oh, it’s like my first child. It’s hard to choose what I like best about it, but I would say I enjoyed the second half probably the most because It has a love story and I have a soft spot for love stories.
[00:20:29] Jane Healey: Nice. What is the best writing advice you’ve ever received?
[00:20:35] Jane Yang: I think it was Jodie Peelcott who said that you can edit a bad page, but not a blank one.
So I, ever since I read about that, I just, it made me, it freed me up once again. I would just dump words on a page and think, okay, it’s not the caress, but I can go back and change it. That’s right. It keeps the momentum going, I think, rather than sitting there and trying to put down the perfect sentence.
[00:21:00] Jane Healey: Absolutely. I love that advice. This is your first time out with this new novel. I know there’s a lot of writers out there who are trying to get that first novel published. Do you have any advice for them?
[00:21:11] Jane Yang: I’d say it’s persistence. So actually, If I count back the years I’ve been trying to get published since I was pregnant with my first child.
I’m 13 now. So if I had given up, I wouldn’t be here. And try different things. So like I, I actually had an Australian agent many years ago. With another manuscript and but our working styles didn’t match and she wanted me to change the story the focus away from a more intimate drama that I’ve I’d like to explore in the Lotus Shoes to a more epic war like story.
And it didn’t suit me, so eventually I parted ways with her. Things. Got too busy at home. So I, with three children, I took a break and then I came back and this time I approach agents from overseas. So you just never know. I think keep trying and don’t let one hurdle define your journey.
[00:22:10] Jane Healey: Oh, that’s excellent advice.
I don’t, I think that people don’t realize too that your first agent may not be the one you are with, your whole career. Or the one that gets you published like that happens all the time. Yeah, that’s great advice. Are you ready to share what you’re working on right now?
[00:22:27] Jane Yang: Yes, I’m actually on to the 3rd draft.
Hopefully the final 1. So this story is got. Two point of views and two timelines. So it’s quite challenging for me and it’s a mystery. Yeah, I probably, yeah, my editor says it’s a very ambitious story, but she loves it. So it’s based in 1906 Shanghai. Scarlet has Amber eyes and she’s half English and half Chinese and a midwife.
She’s feels. She’s totally focused on her career because she fears the uncertainty of love. But then destiny has another plan for her. And in 1806 Jiayi is a really sweet, tempered, beautiful young woman. Only 16, she’s a scullery maid and she’s been chosen to become a little wife for the heir.
Which she thinks it’s an ambiguous position, which is essentially a sexual play thing for the masters until they married, but she is really sweet and naive and she thinks it’s a trial period to become a concubine. Life feels perfect, but then something terrible happens to her and the two storylines will interwine.
It’s got a bit of haunting and a Gothic vibe. I think. Like Rebecca.
[00:23:47] Jane Healey: Oh wow.
[00:23:48] Jane Yang: Yeah, Rebecca type of story.
[00:23:51] Jane Healey: Love Rebecca. That sounds amazing. What, do you have a working title yet or not yet?
[00:23:56] Jane Yang: No, not yet. I’m just calling it book two for now.
[00:24:00] Jane Healey: That’s fine. I can’t wait to hear more about it.
How can readers best stay in touch with you? What’s the best way for readers to stay in touch? I’m most active on Instagram, so that’s just at Jane Yang writing, no space.
Excellent. Yeah
[00:24:16] Jane Yang: and on there sometimes I’ve created a few videos that I help hopefully help readers feel an immersion.
Have more immersion experience into the world. I’ve got one where I got a compilation of photos where I went on that research trip. I did a Qing Dynasty dress up. So you can see the clothing and more. So the hairstyles they had, they used a lot of false hair pieces in that period to anchor all those elaborate hair pins and hair sticks.
So I, and in fact, it inspired a pitiful, Pivotal, so seen in the Lotus shoes. So if you’re interested in that check out my account. And I will create more of these type of videos over time as well.
[00:24:59] Jane Healey: Oh, very cool. So now I’m going to take a few questions from the audience. Christine Mott.
Hello, Christine, did you come up with the title? But was it always going to be the Lotus Shoes?
[00:25:09] Jane Yang: Originally, actually, I called it Little Flower because she’s the main character in my head. But my team came up with that. And actually, I think it’s more, it fits better. And it’s, it really sums up the importance of the Lotus, the Bound Feet in both of their destinies.
[00:25:32] Jane Healey: Oh, yeah, definitely. I want to ask too this, is this the American cover? And then the red cover, is that the British cover? Or British or Australian? Oh, okay. And Australian as well. Yeah I love this cover, I love that cover. I find it so interesting. Do you have a say in both covers? And I’m always so interested, like, why did they go with a different one?
And what, is it because what sells there? Color palette? Oh I
[00:25:59] Jane Yang: think it’s with the publishers in each region it’s whatever I think appeals most to, to the readership in that area. Yes, I do have quite a bit of input, especially with the with the British cover. Would you mind holding up the British
[00:26:14] Jane Healey: cover?
Sorry.
Yeah, I love that one too. They’re they’re both of them.
[00:26:25] Jane Yang: I like how there’s two figures there as well. So yeah, I was involved from the beginning in terms of how their outfits and hairstyles as well. So yeah, it’s really exciting. And I had some input into the American color as well, especially with the hair.
So it’s not so well known, but in that time period, fringes were really popular. Yeah. And from the historical photos, they’re actually a lot shorter and thinner and pasted on, literally pasted on, which isn’t really appealing to the modern eye. So I suggest that we change it a little bit to make it, just aesthetically more appealing.
But I’m still really happy with that and really glad that the fringe is in.
[00:27:08] Jane Healey: Yeah, no, it’s beautiful. There’s a couple more. Let’s see. The, oh, Christine asked how old were the women? And this was, I didn’t know this, how old were the women when they started binding their feet? And they were babies really, right?
Like four years old.
[00:27:24] Jane Yang: Yeah, four years old to get the best result. And then the sort of the wealthier the family, the earlier they start because they don’t need the girl’s labor, but in families like little flowers, which they’re farmers, but a little bit more comfortable, that sort of family they would wait till six or seven.
And then I’ve heard in some regions where they really need the girl’s labor in the. Build, they would wait even longer and, or even just loosely bind them for full marriage and then let it out. So it’s a huge vari variation. But to get that three inch, three Chinese inch or four Western inch, it’s four years old.
Yeah, I couldn’t imagine it. I don’t think I would be strong enough.
[00:28:11] Jane Healey: I don’t either.
[00:28:12] Jane Yang: I can’t tolerate paying myself or feeding my daughter.
[00:28:15] Jane Healey: No, I don’t think I could do it. Carol Cohen asked, is the Lotus Shoes in first person or third person? And how did you choose the point of view?
[00:28:23] Jane Yang: They’re both from first person.
It’s my preferred perspective to write from because I feel like I have tried third person, but then I feel like I’m talking. It’s my voice rather than the characters. Whereas when I write from first person, their personality I find just comes out a lot more naturally to me than a third person. One day I might try third person, but I’m sticking with first person for now.
[00:28:50] Jane Healey: Tim Hayes, hello, Tim, asks, Lotus is a rebirth or purity in English, means rebirth or purity in English. Was this title meant to reflect the rebirth of feminism?
[00:29:00] Jane Yang: No, that’s not something we’ve considered, but I suppose. You could take it that way as well. In the Chinese culture, the lotus is more symbolic of purity because there’s a saying that it’s grown from a muddy field, but it is pure.
So it symbolizes the strength of a person to maintain morally righteous, even if they’re born into murky circumstances.
[00:29:28] Jane Healey: Excellent. I think that is all we have for questions tonight. Jane, thank you for zooming in from across the world. I didn’t realize you were so far away. This was so lovely.
I love the story. I love that it’s getting so much attention and rave reviews and press. Congratulations. I know debuts are hard and I’m just, I’m so happy for you.
[00:29:52] Jane Yang: Thank you so much. I want to thank you again and the audience and thank you for making this interview so relaxing. I haven’t done this many, especially live ones, so I’m a bit nervous, but you’ve made me feel really comfortable and it’s easy to talk to a really friendly face.
[00:30:09] Jane Healey: Oh, thank you. Likewise. I really enjoyed it. Next up, we’ve got a bunch of historical happy hours coming up in March that you can register for at janehealy. com. And don’t forget to follow the podcast or subscribe to my YouTube channel to keep up to date. Again, thank you, Jane. This was delightful and everyone have a great night.
Hi, everyone. Thanks so much. Take care, everyone.
